How To Fight A Traffic Ticket Yourself - The Podcast

"SteveLehto" (stevelehto) 10/29/2015 at 09:00 • Filed to: None

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We’ve all gotten tickets. And we’ve all struggled with whether we should bother fighting them. I’m here to tell you: You can fight the ticket without an attorney if you want to.

I’ve !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! . And yes: I am explaining to you how to do something where it will make less work for attorneys. That’s okay. While I do traffic work for friends and so on, it is not a major portion of my practice. Besides, it’s always more fun to pretend you are an attorney and see if you can go !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! in traffic court. “You’re out of order! The whole trial is out of order!!!” Judges love that.

So here is the audio:

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And the video:

And that pic at the top is the saddest Charger Daytona that ever was. It is an internet star, having been featured in a variety of junkyard photos. Someone yanked it from its scrapyard home and brought it to the Aero Warriors reunion in Alabama last week. I have no idea what they intend to do with it. Sadly, this one is probably too far gone to do anything with (other than to look at it and feel sad).

Follow me on Twitter: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Hear my podcast on iTunes: !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Steve Lehto has been practicing law for 24 years, almost exclusively in consumer protection and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! He wrote !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! and !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! .

This website may supply general information about the law but it is for informational purposes only. This does not create an attorney-client relationship and is not meant to constitute legal advice, so the good news is we’re not billing you by the hour for reading this. The bad news is that you shouldn’t act upon any of the information without consulting a qualified professional attorney who will, probably, bill you by the hour.

Le Monstre > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 09:13

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The biggest question, who the hell would buy that rusted hulk of a former car?

My X-type is too a real Jaguar > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 09:14

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If your car looks like the one pictured you won’t have to fight a traffic ticket, a zoneing ordience fine sure, but a traffic ticket nope.

MoparMap > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 09:14

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Sadly, this one is probably too far gone to do anything with

If it has a VIN plate, I’m sure someone will restore it. There will be next to no original parts left besides that little plate, but I’ve seen similar stuff on car shows before.

SteveLehto > Le Monstre 10/29/2015 at 09:16

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Not sure if anyone actually bought it or if they just brought it to the show. It certainly did attract a good number of gawkers.

SteveLehto > MoparMap 10/29/2015 at 09:16

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No VINs.

LodestarRunner > Le Monstre 10/29/2015 at 09:17

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Someone who needs the VIN.

SirPoopyPants > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 09:17

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Dude, shhhhhh!

50% of my practice is traffic tickets and DUI. Although, I do tell clients that they're basically paying me to get them out of court quickly on tickets.

SteveLehto > SirPoopyPants 10/29/2015 at 09:19

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It’s like an oil change. You CAN do it but most people hate to get their hands dirty.

But I would NEVER tell someone to handle their own DUI.

SirPoopyPants > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 09:20

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Basically, yeah. That’s a good analogy.

Lets get this SHO on the road > SirPoopyPants 10/29/2015 at 09:21

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Just hired my first traffic attorney last week! Mainly for the convenience than anything else.

Le Monstre > LodestarRunner 10/29/2015 at 09:23

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Expect to see it at Mecum in the coming years, with a certificate of authenticity!

Nibby > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 09:29

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I got a parking ticket in Manhattan last year for a silly mistake. I put the muni meter receipt... wrong way up. I thought it was double-sided.

Anyways I contested the $35 ticket I got, including the original receipt and I won! \o/

Lesson learned, double check everything when parking. Now I just try to find free street parking.

Zoom > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 09:29

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Vin and fender tag?

It's a keeper

SteveLehto > Zoom 10/29/2015 at 09:30

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I believe they have all been removed.

GroundSwell83 > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 09:30

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How would you fight a ticket for an expired registration? I park in a commuter lot when I go to work (holds ~1,800 cars) and the cops seem to run everyone’s plate for violations every now and then. I forgot to renew my registration on time and when I returned to my car one night I found a ticket on my windshield. My registration had only expired the day before. These cops are just a bunch of opportunists. Whatever happened to server & protect? All this does is create road rage.

55_mercury > Le Monstre 10/29/2015 at 09:33

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Was going to make the same comment. But knowing how insane some people get over that era of mopar stuff I’d bet that the conversation went like this:

“Well I be! It’s uh numbers-matchin’ charger with plum-crazy red with a 444 an uh 3 on th’ tree!”

Then of course the restoration will involve cutting out the approximately 90% of the sheet metal that hasn’t turned to rust, and aquiring a doner car and then low and behold...

SNL-LOL > Nibby 10/29/2015 at 09:35

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Dr. Nibby,

I got one in exactly the same situation in Toronto. It was only $25 and I sure as hell ain’t flying back to fight it.

I paid it.

Nibby > SNL-LOL 10/29/2015 at 09:36

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Aww, man that stinks. The nice thing about NYC is that they let you contest online.

SteveLehto > GroundSwell83 10/29/2015 at 09:37

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That’s a tough one. I actually got a ticket for that once and went in and talked to the prosecutor. While I am an attorney, I was also representing myself (there are jokes about that). I showed the new registration and just said it was an honest mistake. Forgot what they changed it to but it was a much less painful charge (Driving without a valid registration is actually a bad thing in Michigan.)

The good news is that your car was parked (I hope)?

You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 09:39

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Best case scenario, get pulled over and have the cop not know what the speed limit is. I once got pulled over and ticketed for doing “30 in a 25”. The officer was parked directly across the road from the 30 mph speed limit sign. When he told me he was writing me up for going 30 in a 25 I pointed out to him that he was parked directly across from a 30 mph sign. When he told me I was wrong I quickly shut my mouth and accepted the ticket. The next day I went back and noted the positions of the three 30 mph signs I had passed on that road right before I got the ticket. My letter to the magistrate noted the position of all the signs, the fact that the officer was parked directly across from one of the signs and gave the weather and traffic conditions at the time of the ticket. It was dismissed.

classicist > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 09:40

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Some points of clarification for those 40 million of us in California:

An infraction is a crime as defined by the Cal. Penal Code, but it is only punishable by fines. Because there is no risk of incarceration, the jury trial right and the right to appointment of counsel do not attach. The judge must still find a violator guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

A “ticket” is a written promise to appear in court which a violator signs in exchange for his/her release. (He/she has already been arrested.) These can be written for infractions and for misdemeanors .

I have it by word of mouth that, in the vast majority of California’s 58 counties, the district attorney’s office does not send a prosecutor to traffic divisions handling only infractions. This means, in effect, that the court (usually a commissioner and not a judge) handles arraignment and that the citing officer presents the case on behalf of the People at trial.

Lastly, the things I’ve seen people wear in court... (I shudder.)

Chally72 > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 09:42

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Came here to mourn the Daytona. :’(

MoparMap > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 09:42

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Ah, yeah, pretty much screwed then. I guess you could make it a race car for fun though.

canBitmap > Le Monstre 10/29/2015 at 09:44

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Grand delusions of barn find resale value perhaps.

You might be surprised, among other things, to learn there are plenty of people out there who think such an item must be in the $20,000 to $100,000 range.

SteveLehto > MoparMap 10/29/2015 at 09:45

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Here is the front. This thing is ROUGH.

SNL-LOL > Nibby 10/29/2015 at 09:46

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CAD$25 really wasn’t that bad. At that time a dollar buys 1.20 Canuck bucks so the ticket only cost $20 Freedom Dollars or so.

I got the ticket on the last day of my visit. Incidentally, the traffic bureau was one block from where I got my ticket. I paid it before heading home.

Colddeadfinger > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 09:47

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You mean the women at the sister site? Impressive!

SteveLehto > Colddeadfinger 10/29/2015 at 09:49

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That would be a capitalized Gawker. Versus a gawker.

General Mayhem > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 09:50

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Ran when parked.

offthecharts48 > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 09:53

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Currently dealing with my first ticket, for speeding. Just wanted to say that the information in this podcast was EXTREMELY helpful. Thank you so much Steve, you’re a mensch!

LE5Fiero > GroundSwell83 10/29/2015 at 09:56

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Depends where you are. Here in NC, it wasn’t painful at all. I just went in to the court with a copy of my inspection and my renewed registration/tax paid document. I wasn’t even seen by a judge. I waited in one line where I presented my citation and photo ID. They pulled up the file and handed it off to another couple of people. I waited in a second line, where I showed the documentation that I’d remedied the situation. I was told “Alright, thanks, dismissed.” “Wait, that’s it? Is there paperwork or anything?” “Nope, you’re holding the paperwork in your hand. Thank you, have a good day.” I didn’t question any further than that and left, lest they find another reason to throw some book at me.

Mind you, I’m one of those people who keeps the car in meticulous mechanical shape, so actually passing the safety/emissions check wasn’t even remotely a question. I just thought I had until the end of that month to renew instead of the 15th of that month. Now that I know, I’ll be sure to take care of it on the 1st from now on.

Edit to add: It was only a $25 fine. The problem I had (and the reason I fought instead of paying) was that the court fees on top of that were $190. (This is ridiculous, IMO.) The one lawyer I contacted to see if he could fight this on my behalf wanted a total of $350 to fight it for me. It was this combination of events that made me decide to fight it myself. But there was no “fight” involved. Or even an adversarial process. So I guess I lucked out.

SteveLehto > offthecharts48 10/29/2015 at 09:57

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ALWAYS fight the first one!

Let me know how it goes afterwards.

Birddog > classicist 10/29/2015 at 09:57

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“Lastly, the things I’ve seen people wear in court... (I shudder.)“

You mean to say the Cartoon print Pajama bottoms, stained hoodie and flipflops aren’t proper Courtroom attire?

aismo > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 10:02

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My only Kinja post that’s not a reply is a story on doing just this. The moral of the story was go to court and be a stubborn asshole until they drop the ticket.

yeah, that guy > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 10:02

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In MD the judges goes “You have three choices. Guilty with an explanation, guilty, or not guilty. If you have not gotten a ticket in a while, you can be eligible for a PBJ (likely no points, and no records).”

For most traffic tickets, the Cop is the only one testifying against the offender.

Cops show up often in Counties with money. Less so in other counties.

It tends to be a pretty mild situation and not nearly as crazy as some people make it out to be.

Birddog > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 10:03

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“Sadly, this one is probably too far gone...”

They’re never too far gone these days. There was a writeup years ago on a 1971 Hemi Charger carcass that was found in Mexico. It didn’t look much better than that Daytona and someone put it on a rotisserie. (That was in the mid 90s I think.)

SteveLehto > Birddog 10/29/2015 at 10:06

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I believe all the VIN tags are missing AND the front is even worse (I posted a pic in the comments).

drdude > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 10:07

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THE HAT!!! HE WASNT WEARING HIS HAT!!!

I dont know how anyone could say that with a straight face.

Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. > Chally72 10/29/2015 at 10:08

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The sad thing is, I’m trying to get $3k for my running, driving Corvair with no luck. That car in that condition would get $30k easily.

Edit: n/m, no vins. Drops the price to peanuts.

SteveLehto > drdude 10/29/2015 at 10:09

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I’ve heard that one several times. There are a lot of crazy ones like that - people are just always hoping there is some sill technicality that will get them off.

“He wrote that my car is white. It’s TAUPE!”

LoadStar > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 10:10

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I’ve had two experiences with traffic court.

The first, in one city, I was cited as a result of a collision. The original citation, IIRC, was “following too closely.” I went to court, and immediately met with an assistant city attorney. Before I even said too much beyond “hello,” he said “Here’s what we’re going to offer. We’re going to reduce this to “impeding traffic,” it’s a non-moving violation that reduces your points. Do you want to accept this offer?” After accepting the offer, I just went to the hearing, plead guilty to the reduced charge, paid the ticket, and was done.

The second was in an adjacent city to the first. It was a speeding ticket for 10+ over. In this court, there was no attorneys to meet with. The judge gave a bit of a presentation advising everyone present that it was always in their best interest to plead no contest, unless they want to go to a full jury trial, in which case to plead not guilty. He then called people up one at a time, asked them their plea. If “no contest” was the plea, the city attorney reviewed the case, offered a reduced citation to the judge (in most cases), and that was that.

I’ve never gone all the way to a full trial, and based on these experiences, I don’t see the need. It seems they’re more than willing to offer a reduced citation just for showing up for traffic court.

SteveLehto > LoadStar 10/29/2015 at 10:12

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Did they actually have jury trials for speeding tickets? Or do you just mean a full-blown hearing.

But that “impeding” traffic ticket? That’s all it is really used for - a reduced charge in exchange for a plea.

jimz > 55_mercury 10/29/2015 at 10:13

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at which point it becomes a Ship of Theseus...

jimz > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 10:15

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sounds like your client was a fool.

jimz > classicist 10/29/2015 at 10:17

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I like how you felt the need to tell us how many people live in California.

jimz > General Mayhem 10/29/2015 at 10:18

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“... 30 years ago.”

MechE31 > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 10:18

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As a young, stupid, lead foot teenager, my experiences pretty much mirror your podcast, with the exception that in Florida, I was unable to speak with the officer or a prosecutor prior to the hearing, which was in front of a magistrate.

I contested every ticket I got (which ended up being in the teens over many years, something I’m not proud of, but is relevant here) and half got thrown out prior to ever being heard because the cop didn’t show up.

The first 2 tickets where the cop did show up were reduced to no points without a second thought.

The 3rd and 4th were reduced to no points if I took the standard 4 hour class to eliminate points, but the class wouldn’t count on the standard limitation of being able to take the class only once every 12 months and no more than five times in a ten year period.

The 5th the judge kept the points off, but made me take a 12 hour class.

The 6th time I got points.

At that point, it finally clicked in my brain that maybe I just shouldn’t speed...

I toned it down a lot and the once or twice since then that I did get a ticket, I took the 4 hour class to eliminate points and paid the fine without going to court. With my record, it probably would’ve ended badly. I’m now going on 6 years without a ticket.

Miznitic > Le Monstre 10/29/2015 at 10:20

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Its got a VIN, doesn’t it? That’s all you need.

Stang70Fastback > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 10:22

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Steve, I’ve got a question for you:

This is well-timed, because I’m pretty sure I got my first speeding ticket in many, many years this morning. Two minivans following each other ran right turn on red and almost crashed into me (ironically, right in front of a cop who did nothing.) A half mile down the road (this is in Chicago, by the way) I went to go around one of them to see who the idiot was that was driving, and I happened to do so RIGHT where they have a speed camera placed, and a whole bunch of flashes happened. Figures.

Anyway, so I was doing 37/38 MPH in a 30 MPH zone. Normally, I don’t think those cameras do anything if you are going less than 10 MPH over the limit. However, while there were no children present at the time, it is a school zone (I know, it was a stupid place to pass, but I would have had to turn for work right after the zone, and I wanted to see his face, and I wasn’t really thinking about the zone - I was too busy being angry.) That means I’m probably going to get a ticket for doing 38 in a 20 MPH zone, which is scary.

I have a squeaky-clean driving record (and I have a CDL). For these automated tickets, is the process the same? I don’t care what kind of fine I have to pay, I just don’t want the points. I believe the default ticket is $100 if you are doing 11+ over the limit, but I don’t care about that so much as the points. I imagine the process will be the same regardless of the fact that it is an automated ticket?

theblackdog > yeah, that guy 10/29/2015 at 10:24

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I can back this up in MD. Typically if you go Guilty with Explanation and actually give a decent story (Late picking my kid up, had a bad day, I screwed up) the judge will give PBJ (no points, lowered fine). Don’t screw up and get a ticket again for at least a year and the first ticket won’t come back to haunt you.

If you try to be a dick about it and go Not Guilty while using Internet advice on getting out of a ticket, you’ll likely get the full points and fines. Seriously, don’t try to demand an MD state trooper’s training records and the calibration records for the radar gun, they will have them and they will be recent.

I can definitely say that in Howard County, the state troopers do show up for the court cases, unless they get the flu. That happened to the cop who had written my ticket so mine and about 10 other people’s tickets were dismissed.

J.Miguel > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 10:24

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Hey Steve, I recieved a ticket in nj for “driving unlicensed” because the cop claimed my Maryland license was suspended, he couldn’t give me a reason why it would be suspended but he gave the ticket. So I did some research and went to the Maryland dmv and found out my license was valid. So now I have to go to nj court to defend my case and take a day off from work to do so because the cop made a mistake, can I ask the court for reimbursement for the day I took off? FYI I have the certified copy of my driving record that I got from the Maryland mva

drdude > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 10:29

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YES, in SC you can have a jury trial for speeding. It is not likely to go your way.
However if the system is swampped, they MAY cut you a deal or even drop it. However that is rare. The Judge may try to deny you your jury trial. You have to know you can object to that “opinion”.

Tyler > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 10:30

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I don't know if we just have it easy but almost every time I show up to fight a speeding ticket they at least ditch the demerits. Just go in there, tell them you were in the wrong and most of the time they give you the old wag of the finger and you are on your way paying like half of what was issued.

boobaru > classicist 10/29/2015 at 10:31

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(He/she has already been arrested.)

Don’t you mean detained?

Death By Cornbread > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 10:38

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Just hired a lawyer this week for a Manhattan ticket - NYC is apparently unique in that there are no plea bargains allowed.

You can’t, for example, pay the fine and have the points dropped as a compromise. It’s all or nothing and it goes straight to trial with a not guilty plea.

Normally I’d go fight it myself but I honestly don’t have the energy to deal with this one.

Justin Hughes > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 10:46

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A while back I had a situation where I was following a friend through the town he lived in and a pedestrian wandered across the road between us without looking. I nailed the brakes hard to not hit him. Just after we got moving again I got pulled over, and with virtually no conversation I got a ticket for “harsh, excessive, or unreasonable noise” due to spinning my tires. In other words, I got cited for doing a burnout when I was actually braking hard to avoid an idiot pedestrian! I was driving my AW11 MR2, and lived in another state at the time, so the cop probably figured I was an idiot in a sports car that wouldn’t bother making the trip back to contest it.

I contested it. My friends who I was following at the time, who saw the whole thing, came with me as witnesses. I had a hearing with a magistrate and a police officer from the town that issued the ticket (not the same officer, and yes, this is legal in many places). Not having heard this podcast, I argued for it to get thrown out completely, because the officer was wrong and I had witnesses to prove it. Also, braking hard to not mow down an idiot pedestrian is reasonable.

In the end, the facts of the case didn’t matter. It was all about my driving record, which, fortunately for me, had been clean for at least the past 10 years. The magistrate asked the officer, was clearly bored and didn’t want to be there, if she’d mind dismissing it because of my good record. She had no information other than what was written on the ticket, and agreed.

It sounds like I got lucky in getting it thrown out completely. In the future, whether I actually deserve a hypothetical ticket or not, I’ll try it your way and just see about getting the points knocked down.

Though what if I have dash cam video proving me right? If I could go back in time and install a camera in my MR2 for the pedestrian incident, would I be better off showing the video and trying to get it thrown out, or follow your advice and just try to get the points dropped? Assume that the video does not show me actually doing a burnout.

PartyPooper2012 > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 10:46

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Somehow some people completely forget about points.

In the late 90s I was in the market for a Radar detector. I looked at some and their description said something like If you get a speeding ticket while using this radar, we will pay your ticket. I immediately asked the sales person - who pays for points? I got no reasonable answer.

P.S. Always wear F the police t-shirt when going to court - JUST KIDDING!

rcasi > SNL-LOL 10/29/2015 at 10:50

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I don’t know if Toronto is the same as NY, but with adequate evidence, you can contest a parking ticket online. I received a ticket here in NYC because the parking enforcement person read the no parking day wrong and wrote me a ticket. I contested it online, uploaded the photo and my ticket was immediately dismissed.

SteveLehto > jimz 10/29/2015 at 11:13

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That’s what they told me. Repeatedly.

SteveLehto > Stang70Fastback 10/29/2015 at 11:15

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Yes, someone will show up to represent the camera (some sort of official keep of the records etc). Otherwise, pretty much the same.

SteveLehto > J.Miguel 10/29/2015 at 11:17

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You won’t be compensated. But at least you should win.

Bandit > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 11:23

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If it has a VIN tag, it is never too far gone.

TerminalBRD > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 11:26

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From someone who has only been on the prosecution side of the transaction (hooray for MCR 8.120!) this is all good advice. I will make the point that on the western side of the state or in other smaller counties, the prosecutor might not actually have a huge stack of tickets. The county in which I litigated most of my formal hearings only scheduled as many hearings as it could reasonably hear if all of them went before the judge that afternoon. However, being early and well dressed certainly did cause me to be more willing to work with those challenging their citations.

I should also point out that in my experience, the various prosecutors’ offices are less willing to cut you some slack if the officer already cut you a break on the side of the road. If the officer wrote you for 6-10 over on a limited access freeway instead of 16+ over on a surface street (1 pt. vs. 4 pts.) you probably weren’t going to get a break from me. You also were not going to get a break from me if your speeds were in the triple digit range. At that speed, you knew the risks when you pressed the accelerator. You got caught, now it’s time to face the music.

I also spoke to the officers before making any deals, and if the cop tells me that you were a d-bag on the side of the road, my willingness to deal is also going to decrease substantially. In other words, it is in your best interests to follow Mr. Lehto’s advice on how to behave when pulled over. Things will rarely go well for you if the cop remembers you due to your behavior. The same goes with your behavior toward me. It never ceased to amaze me how many people were antagonistic toward me from the beginning in spite of the fact that I had the power to dismiss or reduce their tickets. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot. That said, a couple of times the officer told me that he remembered the person challenging the ticket because they were courteous and both the cop and I were generally more willing to cut the person a break in that circumstance.

On another note, if you hire an attorney to represent you and appear on your behalf, try to hire one that is local to the court rather than one from the other side of the state. If you hire one from another part of the state, at least make sure that they call the prosecutor’s office to see if there is going to be any likelihood of reaching a deal before they drive to court. I had an attorney show up (without his client) one morning after driving two hours looking to cut a deal on a case that I was not willing to offer a deal on due to the circumstances. He wound up entering a plea of responsibility for his client because his client wasn’t there to testify. Of course, all of this was my fault rather than the attorney’s. He assumed that driving to court from Detroit was going to obligate me to offer a deal, probably also under the assumption that my goal was to simply make the ticket go away. Unfortunately for him, that’s not how my office worked.

It’s also worth noting that in Michigan, because speeding tickets (and most other traffic infractions) are civil infractions rather than crimes, the prosecution can call you as a witness to testify. Most of the time, the first witness I called was the driver and frequently, their testimony was enough to establish responsibility (most often this was for commercial motor vehicle violations).

SteveLehto > Bandit 10/29/2015 at 11:36

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And, as noted above, it has no VIN tags.

ateamfan42 > You can tell a Finn but you can't tell him much 10/29/2015 at 11:44

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Reminds me of a story my friend has of driving on a Navy base when he was in the service. An MP pulled him over for speeding, and claimed the sign “back there” had a low limit that my friend had exceeded. My friend asked “can we take a walk?”. They strolled back there, confirmed the sign was actually much higher, and that was that.

ForScience: Technically Within Spec is Best Kind of In Spec > Le Monstre 10/29/2015 at 11:48

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Buy it, lift up the VIN plate from the pile of iron oxide, sweep the shop clean, roll new car underneath. Easy as pie.

SteveLehto > Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. 10/29/2015 at 11:50

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No VINs AND nothing from its days as a Daytona other than the paint/stripe that you see. Someone even sawed out the rear window plug. The front metal is gone and what was underneath that was bent. Literally, all you could salvage off of this is a small piece from each rear quarter.

Umrguy42: Add $5 for shipping and handling > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 11:53

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I wondered about that in HS once, carpooling home, the guy driving was in a grey Ford Ranchero, cop pulled him over for speeding, and wrote down “GRN” (at least that’s what it looked like) and called it a Chevy El Camino. We could understand writing down El Camino (although my buddy wondered if that gave him leeway on the ticket), but saying green (or what looked that way) was weird. Dunno what he did about the ticket, though, tbh.

SteveLehto > Umrguy42: Add $5 for shipping and handling 10/29/2015 at 12:02

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You can cross-examine the officer on things like that and possibly cast doubt on his testimony. But I once had a case where I was cross-examining the LEO about some facts he’d gotten wrong on the ticket and the judge cut me off. “Who cares?!”

Since the judge was the one making the call on this, it’s kind of hard to argue to him that HE ought to care.

Demon-Xanth knows how to operate a street. > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 12:06

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Honestly, sounds like it’s already been “restored”.

yeah, that guy > theblackdog 10/29/2015 at 12:08

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Howard County, easily the worst place to handle a rent case. But then again, free parking!

Umrguy42: Add $5 for shipping and handling > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 12:18

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Posted this on the previous article:

I got my first ticket after like 12 years of driving for 11 over (66 in a 55 - I’d just gone from a 35 zone to the 55, and wasn’t paying close enough attention to my acceleration). Did my best to be polite, answered “I guess I was going a little fast” when the cop asked me if I knew why he pulled me over (if you’re gonna fight it, btw, watch what you say - he totally wrote that on my ticket).

I hoped for the chance to do a plea deal, but wasn’t sure how to handle it with guilty/not guilty on the ticket response, so I called the clerks at the court, and IIRC, I marked it as Not Guilty, and sent along a letter for the prosecutor/judge basically saying I hoped I could talk about a plea bargain/traffic school/etc.

Went in for my court date (totally different than the date automatically printed on the ticket, btw, not even sure why the local cops get that on the ticket). No suit, but I was in like khakis and a decent polo (my usual work attire). Waited in line for a while. Basic process was, pretty much everybody (that I saw) was at the back of the courtroom, and would get a turn in a little conference room with the prosecutor. Once you had your conference, the really lucky ones apparently got their tickets/cases dismissed (I’m assuming), as every so often, somebody would come out of the conference and leave the courtroom. Otherwise, you’d come out, head towards the middle-to-front of the court, and wait for the clerk to call your name, at which point you’d go in front of the judge, he’d read off the final charge, you’d plead, he’d bang his gavel, and you’d go see the clerks about paying your fines.

In my case, the prosecutor had my letter to the court, he said in light of my previously clean driving record, he could offer me “failure to obey an officer” (I later joked that the failure was in seeing the officer quick enough to not be speeding) and 2 non-moving points, which I could totally remove later on my own via driving school (I actually held off on that as a “just in case” which I’m glad to say I didn’t need). I took it, did the dance with the judge and the clerks, cut a check for mostly court fees, and went back to work.

Basically, I didn’t see the judge have to do much beyond confirming the plea agreements and passing sentence (or whatever you want to call it) while I was there. Possibly (probably?) the more complex stuff got held for later in the session, after the “easy” cases got sorted.

My officemate, on the other hand, had a bad week where he was at fault in a multi-car accident (suddenly stopped traffic on the highway, he couldn’t slow down fast enough and rear-ended somebody, chain reaction) followed by getting a chintzy speeding ticket less than a week later. He definitely lawyered for that one (figured that trying to go alone on the speeding thing might not work as well with the outstanding accident case hanging out there as well) - used the same lawyer for both. Worked out ok, but wasn’t cheap, and the accident case took forever (one of the other drivers was suing for injuries, but couldn’t seem to bother with getting medical records to my officemate’s insurance and such, so they couldn’t finish the settlement for ages).

Bandit > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 12:25

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Well shoot. Looks like I cant read.

HFV has no HFV. But somehow has 2 motorcycles > jimz 10/29/2015 at 12:33

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in a swap.

SteveLehto > Bandit 10/29/2015 at 12:38

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Well, it wasn’t in the piece - it was in the comments. Quite a few people missed it.

electricarchie > Nibby 10/29/2015 at 13:09

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$35!? That’s lower than tickets in the ‘burbs! The last parking ticket I got in NYC earlier this year was more on the order of 150-175.

Nibby > electricarchie 10/29/2015 at 13:18

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what did you do to get $150 ticket o-O

electricarchie > Nibby 10/29/2015 at 13:22

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Stayed for the weekend at a friend’s place near the UN. Parked on the street friday night after 7, was good for the weekend, turns out it was a no standing zone mon-fri 7am to 7pm. When I went to leave on Monday, big ticket. Whoops. I still consider myself lucky to get a spot for the weekend in that neighborhood with all the diplomat zones. $150 was less than a garage for 3 nights.

HoratioGiovanni > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 13:48

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Can we clarify here? Are we talking about fighting tickets that you actually deserve? Because I’ve gotten a handful in my life, and I have never fought them, because I feel like scum doing so, and it just doesn’t seem right. Taking time out of my job to go waste the court’s time because I was speeding or didn’t use a signal and just don’t want to pay the fine associated with it? I feel like if people just learned to own up to their mistakes, the world would be a nicer place to live. On the flipside, there were two tickets that I didn’t deserve, I tried to fight and lost. I’ve read all kinds of essays on how to help your case, but none of that seemed to matter. The court and the police just looked down at me and said “Too bad.”, and that was the end of it. Sure I could have appealed again. More court fees. More time out of work. Just not worth it.

Since then, I’ve invested in the far more sound strategy of buying a radar detector and always using my signals. Been working well for me so far.

d15b > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 14:10

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Subscribed to your youtubes, good sir.

SteveLehto > HoratioGiovanni 10/29/2015 at 14:25

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Yes, tickets you probably deserve. Anyone who just rolls over and pays them is doing a disservice to themself.

SteveLehto > d15b 10/29/2015 at 14:25

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Thanks. Every subscriber counts - youtube, soundcloud or otherwise.

OPPOsaurus WRX > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 14:47

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I got a ticket thrown out due to a mistake. They wrote the ticket to my father, who was the owner of the car but I was driving.

SteveLehto > OPPOsaurus WRX 10/29/2015 at 14:55

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Well, that is a pretty big mistake. Even so, in some jurisdictions, the police officer could have still just written out a new (corrected) ticket to you when the mistake was found.

GroundSwell83 > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 14:59

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Oh yes, the car was parked with no one in it. Too bad your case didn’t go to court because then you would have the opportunity to call yourself to the stand and cross examine yourself.

SteveLehto > GroundSwell83 10/29/2015 at 15:11

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Yes, the logistics would have been interesting.

OPPOsaurus WRX > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 15:18

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my father thought it may have been intentional that he had to write something and possibly did it because he felt bad for me (i crashed into a parkinglot as a teen, sober) he thought the cop might have thought I had punished myslef enough at that time and didn;t really need anything more.

Clown Shoe Pilot > yeah, that guy 10/29/2015 at 15:19

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PBJ you say?

Bob Loblaw > MechE31 10/29/2015 at 15:23

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I find the best way to avoid speeding tickets is to drive the speed limit. But second best is to avoid entering blind corners/spots more than 15 mph over the posted limit.

While it IS sociopathic to speed irresponsibly, one can drive well over the speed limit while doing so safely. It takes judgment and attention to others ahead and who will be in front of your bumper and conceding position to them when necessary.

Fatletic > PartyPooper2012 10/29/2015 at 15:30

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It is only ok if you have a fetish.

yeah, that guy > Clown Shoe Pilot 10/29/2015 at 15:45

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It is not the same thing, but its basically the same thing.

zergs > classicist 10/29/2015 at 16:01

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An infraction is a crime as defined by the Cal. Penal Code, but it is only punishable by fines.

No. An infraction is a public offense as defined by PC 16. It is not a crime and does not appear on your official criminal record. Nowhere in the Penal Code are the terms “infraction” and “crime” used in reference to each other. PC 17(d) very specifically refers to offenses listed under PC 19.8, which in turn identifies certain violations of the Vehicle Code, Government Code, Business & Professions Code, and other code sections as infractions. Compare that to PC 17(a): “A felony is a crime that...Every other crime or public offense is a misdemeanor except those offenses that are classified as infractions.”

A “ticket” is a written promise to appear in court which a violator signs in exchange for his/her release. (He/she has already been arrested.)

Again, no. A traffic detention is a Terry stop, not an arrest. PC 834 defines an arrest as “An arrest is taking a person into custody, in a case and in the manner authorized by law.” If you aren’t taken into custody, it’s a detention only.

Shiarlis > SteveLehto 10/29/2015 at 18:21

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Drop on tube frame, zip tie in trailer lights, ZOMBIE DUKE BOYS!

classicist > zergs 10/29/2015 at 19:22

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You’re actually wrong on both counts.

I.

The distinction you draw between “public offense” and “crime” is meaningless. “In Califonia ‘a public offense’ is synonymous with ‘a crime.’” ( Burks v. U.S. (9th Cir. 1961) 287 F.2d 117, 122, citing Cal. Pen. Code sect. 15 [providing one definition for both terms].) “An infraction is a criminal matter subject generally to the provisions applicable to misdemeanors, except” for certain procedural rights. ( People v. Simpson (2014) 223 Cal.App.4th Supp. 6, 9; emphasis added.) I elected to use the term “crime” because it’s a more familiar term than “public offense.”

II.

A traffic stop may begin (and often does begin) as a Terry stop. But that’s not always where the story ends; sometimes it ends in a traffic citation (a ticket). “Under California law, a traffic citation is considered an ‘arrest,’ ... for which an officer must have probable cause. ( Easyriders v. Hannigan (9th Cir. 1996) 92 F.3d 1486, 1498; see Cal. Pen. Code sect. 853.5 [arrestee on infraction may be released on promise to appear].) This is why all tickets (which are actually Cal. Judicial Council form TR-130) have a mandatory line for “arresting officer.” Your Crim. Pro. professor may have taught you that traffic stop equals a Terry stop. However, if traffic stop results in a ticket, there was an arrest somewhere in there. Remember, a Terry stop is a detention for the purposes of investigation where an officer has reasonable suspicion of an offense, whereas a citation is a promise to appear which itself can be submitted to the court in lieu of a complaint as a charging document .

classicist > boobaru 10/29/2015 at 19:22

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No. I mean arrested. ( Easyriders v. Hannigan (9th Cir. 1996) 92 F.3d 1486, 1498.)

smobgirl > Stang70Fastback 10/29/2015 at 21:08

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Check the Internet for your specifics, but in some localities you don’t get points for camera tickets. Just a fine. (Also, in Denver they’re apparently pretty lenient about people just claiming it’s not them in the photo.)

boobaru > classicist 10/29/2015 at 21:35

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So the cops read people their Miranda rights every time they pull someone over?

classicist > boobaru 10/29/2015 at 21:51

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Absolutely not. Miranda is not a requirement for an arrest; reading a suspect’s Miranda rights only allows the officer to elicit statements via a custodial interrogation and use them in court. Also not every traffic stop is an arrest; they may start as Terry (investigative) stops, then by the time the ticket/citation/notice to appear has been issued there has been an “arrest.”

The law is crystal clear in this regard. These are not my words but those of the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit: “Under California law, a traffic citation is considered an ‘arrest,’ ... for which an officer must have probable cause. ( Easyriders v. Hannigan (9th Cir. 1996) 92 F.3d 1486, 1498; see Cal. Pen. Code sect. 853.5 [arrestee on infraction may be released on promise to appear].) How much more plain do you want it than that?

zergs > classicist 10/29/2015 at 21:52

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The distinction you draw between “public offense” and “crime” is meaningless.

It is not. The legislature was very careful and considered in the language that it uses and while a public offense includes crimes, it is not coterminous with crimes. Your Burks cite is not only inartful language in a tangential case, but especially comical considering that infractions didn’t even exist until 1968 . The case predates the entire concept. Similarly, overly simplified dicta to pass a procedural bar as in your Simpson cite does not change the mechanics of the situation.

A CVC violation does not generate a criminal record, need not be disclosed as a criminal offense, and does not conform with either the public or the law’s general sense of the word “crime”. There is no prosecuting attorney, no right to a public defender, no right to a trial by jury, no risk of jail time, no DOJ report,

Indeed, if traffic infractions were crimes, then the way they are prosecuted and tried is flagrantly unconstitutional. (See Cal. Const., Art. 1, §§ 7, 15, 16.) If you want to go down the caselaw rabbit hole, the California Supreme Court disagrees with your assessment (See In re Hayes (1969) 70 Cal.2d 604). Other informative discussions appear in more relevant published cases: “Further, infractions are not crimes and the rule forbidding successive prosecutions of a defendant is not applicable when an infraction is one of the offenses involved” ( People v. Sava (1987), 190 Cal.App.3d 935, citing e.g., People v. Battle (1975) 50 Cal. App. 3d Supp. 1, People v. Oppenheimer (1974) 42 Cal. App. 3d Supp. 4).

Petty offenses are not treated as criminal, are not afforded the protections guaranteed to criminal defendants, and aren’t reported as crimes. There is no point in trying to convince people that it is a criminal matter when infractions are handled and treated as an administrative matter. It’s inconsequential.

However, if traffic stop results in a ticket, there was an arrest somewhere in there.

Again, a pedantic half-truth with absolutely no consequence. Just like a traffic violation doesn’t appear on a DOJ record, pulling a client’s arrest record would not include traffic stops. Even actual arrests are recorded as mere detentions in a number of circumstances. The TR-130, for the record, also says “Arresting or Citing Officer”.

boobaru > classicist 10/29/2015 at 22:18

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You make a confident case, but I just don’t believe you. There’s no way that an out headlight can let a cop bypass the 4th amendment, because if you were truly under arrest, they can search without consent. That’s some gestapo bullshit.